Peter-Bottom/Chine work-Questions

Hello Folks,

Life kind of got in the way of my boat restoration. However, I am now back on it. I’ll try and make this as succinct as possible.

I have done some exploratory cutting of the bottom, starting where it was completely rotten. (Pictures A & B) I found that there is solid wood the further you get away from the original leak. (Picture C) There is checking in the fir and a few places of deterioration in the first and second layers of the plywood. I believe if this is truly the case, I will scarf in a new piece as opposed to replacing the entire bottom. My plan for the bottom once complete is fiberglass.

My immediate concern is the replacement of about a 3+ foot section of the starboard chine log. It’s toast. It, quite literally at least a foot of it, crumbled in my hand. (Pictures D & E). My thinking was to remove the 7” rub rail. Upon some initial exploration, it seems to be epoxied as well as screwed in.

Is here a way that I am not aware of to loosen the underlying epoxy for removal?
A better way?

My plan of attack is to remove/expose the damage under the rub rail. (Picture F) Assess any damage/rot to the side under the rub rail as well. Remove and replace the rotted area of the chine log. Thoughts?

Please feel free to chime in on anything! All advice I have received here has helped immensely. Thanks! As they say now the fun part starts…

Where are you located? Or better yet where was the boat the last 20 years?

Rot like that cannot happen unless the wood stays moist for long periods. A garage or a carport or a tarp helps a lot. Over the years.

I say this because there is some debate about putting fiberglass on the outside of framed boat. When a framed boat is glassed on the outside but not the inside the upright boat becomes like a giant soup bowl that collects water, where the plywood dries upward but not downward.

I can't speak from experience. I made six or eight framed boats in the early 1980s and then switched over to stitch and glue (which I called "ribless" construction then because the stitch and glue phrase didn't exist yet). So I've never done what you are thinking about.

I've heard Jason Cajune question the wisdom of glass on the outside of a framed boat. My hunch is that it's fine, as long as you do take some care to keep it from staying wet for months at a time. Which might be difficult in places like Western Oregon.

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I haven't been doing much boat building. I'm 72 and, for what it's worth, I've been fighting off Covid for five months now. I'm what they call a long hauler. I'm not that sick but not that healthy either. I don't have enough strength to work in the shop yet. Progress is steady but slow.

I think that's one reason this forum has been so quiet recently. When I'm involved in boat building and post pictures and jabber about it, questions and discussion happens. When I'm quiet as a church mouse traffic recedes.

If I was younger and healthier I'd want to build an all wood no fiberglass boat where everything screws together over Marine Grade Silicone. So, for instance, replacing a damaged bottom would be about backing out screws and firing up the caulking gun.

If the bottom panel got damaged five years later, in other words, no big deal. Put on a new one.

Hey Sandy,

Very sorry to hear that!!! Wishing you a complete and total recovery. Hang tough!

I live in TN. Acquired the boat in January and have been slowly bringing it back. Based on what I found, it got a leak under a skid shoe I removed around the scarf joint in the bottom and was never properly addressed. Someone attempted quick fixes, which as I found were total fails. Never a good idea. A real shame, but I am going to bring her back. Attached a couple of pics from earlier. You can see at least one of the attempts someone tried. Looks like they just slapped some clear resin/epoxy on the leak area.

You've been a huge help as I've moved through the project!!! Just want you to know I've appreciated it!

Again, get well soon!!!!!

Peter

:=)) I'll be fine. I've got Jan 1st 2021 set as a back to 100% target date.

Don't believe it if someone tells you Covid is no big deal. In 72 years I have never ever been hammered this hard.

I believe it!!!!! I'm 67 and wife and have been ultra careful. Sister-in-law caught it early. Nasty stuff! Hang tough! Peter

Peter, glad to see you are back at it. Sandy, I am glad to hear that things are improving! Stay careful out in the wilds of cities!

Peter the part you are calling the rub rail is also know as an outer chine cap. It is designed to be sacrificial as it commonly and easily damaged. The inner piece is call the the inner chine. Since your inner chine has rot in several places the strength of your boat is highly compromised. Drift boats like other boats are the sum of the pieces, in other words all the parts are required to be at full strength to provide the required strength for the boat. When all the parts and pieces are fastened together or epoxied together along with the gunwales the structure takes on amazing rigidity. A weak inner chine not scarfed and laminated with epoxy but perhaps just replaced with a section of wood will soon fail or at least result in a weak spot.

In a frameless or stitch and glue boat laminations of fiberglass cloth and epoxy take the place of the chines.

While it is a lot of work to remove the plywood bottom and replace it, it is probably less time consumptive to do so and then you know all the parts are good and that your bottom has no rotten places.

Have you purchased Roger Fletcher's Drift Boats and Dories? It would be of immeasurable help to you, it will help with a much better understanding of all the parts, pieces and their relationships. I can share pictures of installing a new bottom if needed. If you have questions please let me know!

Rick Newman

Hey Rick! Thank you sir.

I just purchased the book and will definitely go through it thoroughly. To be honest, this bottom is a little intimidating for a newbie, but I'm committed! Figure I've never walked away from a challenge in 67 years, can't start now! ;-)

Your advice is spot on. I was leaning that way regarding replacing the whole bottom. That's the route I believe I'll take. I agree it's the only way to one, be sure the bottom is solid and second it will let me see any hidden issues with the inner chine.

I would love to see some pictures! (Visual guy) Anything will help. Your encouragement means a lot!!

Removing the bottom is hard on most boats because it was screwed AND glued to the frames. I need to get healthy soon. So I can build one last boat--that screws together over Marine Silicone (more expensive and different than hardware store silicone).

Removing a bottom stuck on with marine silicone would still be a chore. But you could to it, without splintering any underlying ribs. To make it work you would need a substantially fatter, stouter chine strip. But that's an already solved problem. I've been making chine strips (and the like) by laminating random length 1/4" inch strips of ash or white oak. That way you could have a chine strip a full 1" thick and 2" or more tall. That would provide macho fastening at the chine, for joining side panel to bottom. Grafting that idea into an old restoration might not make sense.

But it sure would in a start from scratch context.

I will work on it. In the meantime go to Wooden Boat People.com and look for my page: http://woodenboatpeople.org/profile/RickNewman and look over the 245 photos I have already posted. If you have the time there is quite an education to be received by starting at the first posts and reading all the way through them. I have but I stated over a decade ago!

You will end up with a great boat once you work your way through the boat building process!

Rick Newman

You guys are amazing! Thank you.

In removing the bottom, I'm cutting away the sections between the frames to within about 1/2 inch to avoid cutting into the frame. Then taking a skill saw and trimming that back when I can see the edge. Using a chisel to then remove the remaining plywood on the frame in layers until the frame is exposed.

Sandy, much appreciated Info. A very interesting concept! I will also look into Marine silicone for attachment. Also answered my question about preferred wood for chine.

Rick, this is perfect! Thanks. I'll do it. I've set aside tomorrow to continue the bottom removal.

Thanks again! I finally feel like I have at least a start on a workable plan!!!

I'll have to go out to the shop to see what brand (Marine Silicone) I bought.
There are a few youtube videos about boat building sealants and caulks.

3M 5200 (is that the right name) is dangerous. It bonds so securely it's nearly impossible to get stuff apart. Ever again.

Most hardware store caulks don't bond well enough. Marine Silicone is right in the middle.

I'll edit this post later today. When I know what brand I bought.

Peter, I am glad I can help you out. I look forward to more pictures! Keep at it! One of the most respected sealant in the marine industry for wooden boats is poly sulfide based because it remains pliable after it has been applied and remains so for a long time. Boat Seal Life Seal has and does work well for me and many others.

Rick Newman

Thank you guys!! About to head to the shop. Full bottom deconstruction mode.

That's great info on the sealants! Good to know about the 3M 5200, don't think I want to go there...

I'll post more pics as I progress! Thanks again!!!

Hey guys!! I'm back.

First things first. Sandy, I truly hope your recovery is still headed in a positive direction! Take it a day at a time.

Ok. So the bottom is gone. Fortunately it came off relatively easily. Relative being a general term. I think my dull chisel and my heat gun are my new best friends. Just took my time and peeled plywood where needed to avoid any damage to the frame. (Pic A) Mission accomplished. Also pulled both of the outer chines. (Pic B) Because of the damage to the bottom 3", gonna replace both with new wood using the previous ones as templates.

I also removed all old epoxy and sanded the frame including the inner chines to get a better feel for what the wood really looked like. Did some serious poke tests using a small awl. Most of the wood is sound. Figured I needed to do that anyway prior to reconstruction. It doesn't look too bad. Not perfect but not bad.

Rick, pulling the whole bottom was exactly the right call. As I removed it I found pockets in the plywood that were toast. When your saw suddenly cuts like nothing's there, you got a problem. The one "opportunity" that presented itself was another section of the starboard chine that is going to have to be replaced. (Pic D) In the bow section. I believe I'm going to be able to salvage the sides, other than the one really bad section. Maybe a splice? Sure would be easier on the budget.

The damaged inner chine, to be replaced, is about 4' in the center. (Pic C) and about 2' in the bow. (Pic D).

Couple direct questions:

1) My thought would be to patch/fill all the screw holes and also apply a rotten wood restorer to any suspect areas. (Pic E) By doing this prior to replacing the chine areas I thought this would give an even longer time for it to cure as I work on the rest.

I have done some research in both here and the Wooden Boat People sites and have found three avenues for filling the screw holes that interested me. West Systems Six 10 Epoxy, EzFillet, drilling each out and gluing a dowel. Not a huge fan of the last one because of the number of holes. Have done it multiple times in the past, but not to this extent. Thoughts? Recommendations on a wood rot/restore product?

2) Given the additional damage to the starboard inner chine, should I still splice it or do I need to replace the whole thing?

It's been really interesting. The more you deconstruct, the more you learn about the construct. Not as intimidated as I was a week ago. I know I can do this now. Really glad to have saved this boat from a bonfire. Still having more fun each day! Thanks again guys for your encouragement and help!!!

Sandy, stay well!

Oh, left one method out in filling the screw holes. Epoxy sawdust mix. My biggest concern is the screws holding fast to whatever filler I use. I'll probably pre-drill a pilot hole upon reconstruction.

Thanks again! I trust both you guy's implicitly, given your experience, and am following your lead!!!

Put wax or soap on the screw heads before driving. Then putty over top. I usually (carefully) poke a bit more wax onto and into the head after driving the screw, using something vaguely like the butt end of a kitchen match. And then putty over top. That way you can get the screws out lickedy split. At a later date.

For puttied screws heads that are hard to dig out an ice pick and a soldering iron, plus a few carefully selected cuss words usually does the trick.

What wax to use? I use blue or purple cross country ski vax.

Thanks Sandy!!! Will definitely do that. Fortunately was able to get all but 5 screws out using my trusty heat gun. That thing has earned its keep!

May try and cut the rotted chine pieces out this week. Sometimes you gotta just go for it! ;-)

To fill old screw holes I would use neat laminating epoxy. EzFillet is to thick......it does not stuff down a small hole. Even modest holes, like 1/4"diameter, that is more than 1/4" deep don't fill well. If the hole goes all the way through, so you can push the filler all the way through, then it works great. You can screw into ezfillet or neat epoxy, just drill a pilot hole first. I've no experience with West Systems.

Thanks Eric! These screw holes are about 1" deep. More holes than I'd like because of the skid shoe that was on. Apparently when that was put on they went through the bottom and into the frame.

My thought was no matter what I use to be sure it is packed in tight to the bottom of the hole. Maybe a thin dowel. I'll adjust the technique based on the size of the hole.40 year old boat, it's a constant fluid process!

Thanks again!

Hey guys!!

The deconstruction is complete. I still need to fill the screw holes but I need to think ahead. Will fill those, but I need to order the reconstruction materials.

I plan to use white oak for the inner chine repairs.

However I need some advice on the plywood for the outer chines and the bottom. The original wood was Douglas Fir.

Which would you recommend:

Douglas Fir or Meranti? (Both marine grade)

I live in Nashville and am fortunate enough to be able to source these locally.

Ready to rebuild!!! Still having more fun than I probably should be! Thanks in advance for all your help! Never would have gotten this far, with the confidence I've gained, without you!

Today's Douglas Fir isn't of the same quality as what it was years ago. As you know, plywood is made from several layers of wood laminated together. Years ago the Douglas Fir plywood was made with high quality layers of wood peeled from old growth wood. The trees were large and grew slowly. The distance between the layers or rings was tighter and closer together. The variances between summer wood and winter wood was less. The trees grew in undisturbed forests and were shaded by each other. Todays Douglas Fir is encouraged to grow faster so it can be harvested sooner.

"Old growth lumber is wood that was grown naturally in massive virgin timberlands. Across the globe, there are several forests that are still left untouched, and no efforts have been made to harvest the trees for commercial use. The trees have been untouched by weather extremes, fire, windstorms, etc., for almost 120 years. These unharvested trees age gradually due to partial sunlight and competition from surrounding trees. The gradual growth rate leads to the formation of tightly crammed growth rings which are highly beneficial." Source: https://urbanwoodgoods.com/blogs/news/old-growth-vs-new-growth-lumber-which-is-better

"The birth of new growth wood is marked by a decline in the availability of old growth lumber. As more and more people started using old growth wood, the virgin timberlands almost reached extinction. That’s when the farmers began harvesting pine trees and other trees that grow fast to maximize productivity. New growth lumber trees reach full growth is almost 15-20 years. However, there’s one drawback. The growth rings are not tightly packed, and the space between them is more. Therefore, old growth wood is more useful." Source, see above

An issue that is of concern with Douglas Fir plywood is when it comes time to finish your boat. Because of the difference in hardness between summer growth and winter growth the plywood can exhibit a wide variance in smoothness. When you sand the fir plywood the softer wood is removed at a faster rate than the harder, more dense winter growth that occurred slower and is of greater density. So, if you want a smooth surface that doesn't telegraph the differences in the growth rings something must be used to fill in the lowered surfaces. High build primer, some form of a filler, etc. But if you do that you will loose the beauty of the wood in most cases.

Another issue is that as fir plywood ages and dries out cracking between the growth rings will occur. Perhaps you have seen older items or fir plywood that exhibits this characteristic. Cracking can be stopped, however it comes with a cost of time, labor and materials. A lamination of fiberglass cloth, even four or six ounce adhered to the wood with fiberglass resin will stop the cracking. Your surface may not be glass smooth but you can still do what is called a bright finish or a varnished finish.

With newer growth Douglas Fir the issue of patches, diamond shaped plugs of plywood in stalled at the mill to take the place of the stobs, a cutoff branch that leaves a deformity in the plywood as it is peeled of the log. Yes, there really is a word know as stob. When I grew up in a logging community the sawyers and chokers setters that worked on the cutting and transport of wood from the forest floor all had their pants cutoff about 12" from the ground, with no sewn seams. As I understood it was better to tear your pants than get stuck on a stob, fall and get injured. There was no sick leave back ten. No work, no pay!

The issue with patches is a cosmetic one not a strength issue. Clear grained Douglas Fir looks great when finished with a few coats of varnish. A patch in the middle of the side of your boat or on you wall is unsightly. Yes, people actually used to take full sheets of Douglas Fir plywood to finish the interior walls of their homes, especially when you lived near a sawmill and plywood was a relatively inexpensive way to do your walls!

So, there are several down sides to using Douglas Fir, especially the new growth that is available. There is a story that surfaces from time to time at wooden boat get-together's, especially in Oregon, is that one builder of fine drift boats foresaw the end of old growth Douglas Fir and bought an entire train car load of old growth so he could continue to use it for years to come!

As to Meranti, it is also a fine wood. The issues with it are fewer than with Douglas Fir. It is more available as it has not been overharvested yet. It will not exhibit the variances in growth rings that fir does. It will infrequently have diamond shaped patches. It is quite easy to obtain a smooth finish if so desired. It doesn't require a lamination of fiberglass to keep it from cracking. Meranti is also lighter per unit. Meranti splinters less when sawn.

So you can evaluate which plywood is better for the application you have in mind. I do not know the cost in your neck of the woods but you will easily determine that.

"You pays your money and you takes your chances." Has often been said!

Good luck,

Rick Newman

Hey Rick!!

This is great information!! I really appreciate the depth you went into and the time you took to write it!

As I mentioned in my reply to Sandy on the other site, took a break from the boat and headed for the Smokey mountains last week. Just me, my tent and my fly rod! 5 days. It was a awesome. Zero cell service. Got my center back...

Got back Friday night and attacked the boat again Saturday. Was able to get the rotting part of the side and the inner chine removed. Other than some sanding it's close to being ready to accept the new pieces. Nerve wracking at first, but fun!!

Continuing to source materials today. What's available and from where, as well as my budget, may have to factor into my final decision. Reality is a bear sometimes... ;-)

Again, my sincere thanks!!!! I'll keep you guys posted, but feeling good about the progress!

I totally understand the process. I was fortunate to find a complete Tatman drift boat kit that had never been unpacked nor ever worked on. Got it for $750 with my silent partner and then had to start sourcing and collecting boat building materials. I have worked on a variety of construction jobs from electric fences designed to allow elk to pass over them and still retain the cattle behind them. Also work to protect an old orchard from bears and advised on electric fences to keep aged chimpanzees in side and much more. Grew up fixing things from cars to motorcycles and more. However, not much of those jobs prepared me or my selection and collection of tools for building a drift boat.

So, going through much the same process as you are now to learn what will and won't work well provided me with quite an education. Sandy and many others have been helpful in adding more knowledge. This is why I enjoy sharing knowledge with you and others, it is a way to give back.

I know it is hard to believe but I used to hate to write and to speak in front of others. A couple of vastly different jobs provided another education in grammar and public speaking. I used to say I was so shy that I wasn't the wallflower at high school dances I was the wall paper!

Anyway, I am glad to be of help to you and others!

Your friend,

Rick Newman

Hey Rick!

You know all those jobs we've done over the years, we took something from them. Not necessarily how to build a drift boat (understatement), but what it did teach us is perseverance. Don't know something? Learn it. Listen to those who do. I've done the same, everything from flipping burgers and an ice cream jockey to working in the bowels of a copper plant on the furnaces. And a lot in between... (The only thing I learned from the burger gig was, never again...)

Interesting to hear you say you were wallpaper! Never would have guessed that with your writing and people skills! I used to be rather reserved. My family now says I'd talk to a rock. We learn.

Really great to have you and others here I now consider friends! Thanks for taking me under your wing! I really feel she'll be a good one when she's done. Having a blast! Thanks man.

Peter, I am at times a frustrated perfectionist. You spoke of perseverance, I know of what you write. I have been sanding on the outside of my boat now for many days, three hours or so at a time. The outer surface was initially coated in epoxy, primed with automotive primer, painted with an industrial polyurethane, a two-part, water-based paint and now I am planning on coating it with TotalBoat Wet Edge polyurethane paint. My garage is too full of tools and parts to clean it out so I can once again spray it. So rolling and tipping is going to have to achieve the quality of finish I desire.

At this point I have patched the major issues with a high tech, very adhesive, auto body filler. It came out pretty much smooth, but the more I work on the surface I find small divits and issues that bother me. The current step I am on is using auto body glaze, a one part quick drying thin filler. I apply with a small, thin metal spatula in very thin coats. I then let it dry and sand most of it off. Then I once again repeat the process filling the even small imperfections.

Is this perseverance or craziness? After all it is only a drift boat! If you visit my page(s) on Wooden Boat people you can see how I once before went through the same process! Crazy twice!

I still have apply finish to the interior, however I have already spent considerable time sanding it to remove the previous coating that now peels off. You don't want to know how many hours of sanding I have done since I started building the boat, perseverance takes time and effort!

However I enjoy it and want to see the results of my efforts to achieve a quality finish. One thing I sometimes forget to consider, is how much more I will be able to use this boat on rivers like it was designed for. The human body unless sufficient physical excercise is regularly applied doesn't retain the same amount of muscle mass it once did, age is not your boating partner after six plus decades. Perhaps it is time to teach my son to row me down the river while I fish. It is hard to let go of the oars!

Keep on, keeping on. You will have a fine, very usable watercraft that you can have great pride of ownership from your involvement in repairing and rebuilding it.

Welcome to the world of wooden boats and drift boating.

Your friend in wood, sawdust, epoxy, hardware and paint!

Rick Newman

Hey my friend!

Wow. That is a lot of crud to get off!! That's a bear! Funny you should talk about the sanding of the outside. Spent all day today doing the same. Not near as bad as your's, but still about 3 layers of varnish, 2 layers of paint and another couple of coats of varnish. Takes time to get it down to surface I can be happy with. Fixing dings and dunks along the way. Really looking forward to seeing pics of your progress!!!

My career, the one I actually supported the family with, was as a creative director and graphic designer. I had great mentors. They told me early on, you can make in good or you can make it great. The difference is in the details. This happened to play directly into my perfectionist personality. Seems like we have a lot in common!!! I'm doing the same on the boat. Good example, after cutting out the rotten inner chine on Saturday, there was a small piece of the center hatch frame that had some deterioration. Could have probably been fixed with epoxy. But I chose to replace it. Yeah, no one ever would have seen the patch, but I would always know it was there... Our perfectionist quality is both a blessing and a curse!

Boy do I get the muscle mass loss! At 67, mind is still 21, my body keeps trying to convince otherwise... I really like the idea of putting your son on the oars! I may try that! I happen to have one of those...

I'm going with the Total Boat Wet Edge as well, probably the Sea Green. Will leave the outer chines natural. Combined with natural of the gunwales should be nice.

You mentioned Boat Life Seal for the bottom. You been happy with it? Longevity? Do not want to attached the bottom permanently with hard core epoxy. As you know sometimes they need to be replaced... ;-)

Using 5200 for the chine scarfs and the side patch.

Maybe weekend after next before I start that, but I've got plenty to keep me busy in the meantime! Gotta make it perfect! Ha, ha! Take care man...sand on! Post more pics when you can.

Hey folks,

Quick question. I'm gonna use Boatlife Life Seal for attaching the bottom. Using the 3M 5200 for the splices in the inner chines. Will also use the 5200 for the lap scarfs in the side. I figured those were areas that needed that permanent bond.

Where the new inner chine drops into the chine notches and where the side attaches to the new inner chine, could I use the Boatlife caulk or should I use a different epoxy like 3M 101?

Nothing set in stone right now, but new wood will be here this week and hoping to at least get the new inner chine in as well as the side patch.

As always, couldn't have gotten this far without you!!

3M 5200 is hard to beat if you consider the joint in question in any way permanent.

But if you want to be able to get the two parts separated again someday, even if it's ten years down the road, I'd use Silicone Caulk. Dowsil 794 is a "marine" silicone that grips harder than cheap hardware store silicone. Getting parts separated from Dowsil 794 isn't necessarily easy. But it's possible.

Perfect Sandy!!! That's what I'll go with!!
Appreciate your help as always! Hope you are continuing down the positive road to full recovery. Hang tough!

Very excited to have turned the corner to the rebuild... Now it's all starting to come together.

Again, my thanks sir!!!

Hello Peter

My name is Joe and I live in southeast TN. I've been following your post and there's a LOT of info here. I am currently building one from scratch for myself, but there's a lot to learn in this thread. I saw you were fishing in the Smokeys. What streams did you hit? My dad is from up there so I know some really good ones that are away from the tourist spots and they hold some really nice trout.

Second question: what is your source for marine plywood? I found mine in Atlanta but I would like to find one that doesn't involve driving through that traffic nightmare.

Third question: did you resolve filling the screw hole issue? I was following a rebuild by another builder and he drilled out the old screw holes and filled them with dowel rods and epoxy. He then cut them flush which gave a really nice surface for reconstruction.

Keep the pics coming!